joshuaink

Is there a hole in my skill set?

Thursday November 24, 2005

I’ll keep this brief in the hope of getting people’s genuine thoughts but in doing so I am not giving you the full story, please try and keep that in mind if you decide to make a comment. In other words, I am not after your opinion on my specific failings as a human being and how I should hang my head in shame but rather your general thoughts about what I discuss below:

I don’t do JavaScript so the question is simple, is that a hole in my skill set as a “front end” designer, or, in this day and age, is it a specialist subject which—whilst I can happily enjoy it as a hobby — is best left to the professionals who know their DHTML onions?

• Skip to main navigation
• Skip to sub content and search form

1. Max

   1140 days ago

   I think that in some instances, JavaScript is useful to know. Maybe not the most complicated stuff, but in some instances it can come in handy. In some cases, it’s nice to use a little AJAX to make a website work more easily. Also, some clients want lots of flashy effects on their site, and they’ve heard of this thing called “DHTML” that can make cool sliding menus and stuff, and if you tell them you don’t do it, they might not want to hire you. Although I doubt you have a problem getting clients.
   In some instances, things like livesearch can be useful, or in something like a signup form, it’s nice for it to check the database before you leave the page to see if the username you have chosen is avalilable or not.
   You have many specific failings as a human being. Hang your head in shame.

2. Gavin

   1140 days ago

   I’d say it’s a hole if you don’t know what can and can’t be done with the technology. I don’t think a ‘designer’ needs to know that MSIE won’t set a nodes class property in the right way or that the DOM in Safari doesn’t like the word ‘blue’ on full moons. However, I’d say that it might be useful to be able to say, “No, we can’t use flashy fades like that because they’ll put too much load on older machines”, or “it’d be useful to make the page do insert javascript voodoo here. I’ll get my code monkey to do it.”
   
   I’d look on it the same way as the Denis’s graphics. You didn’t draw them yourself but I bet you had input on why it should be a certain width and the pallete it uses even though you’re not an illustrator.

3. emptyhead

   1140 days ago

   Im all for specialisation… if you can afford it :).
   
   But: – you have to know what can be done in close related fields and “how-to” in theorycraft. – you have to know who can do a good job in those close related fields
   
   w/o those two bullets, you are in trouble.

4. Drew

   1140 days ago

   It’s an odd one, because JavaScript crosses the line. Usually most programming is done on the server, and therefore to be a front end mark up and CSS developer you don’t normally need to get involved with any programming.
   
   The crucial aspect in any development team is that you have someone who knows JavaScript well, regardless of which hat they happen to normally wear.
   
   In my opinion, however, I think that every front end developer should have at least some basic, light-weight javascript skills. Enough to be able to fiddle with UI elements in response to user actions, show/hide stuff and all the trivial jobs that you’d struggle to term programming. Otherwise you’ll just piss off your JavaScript expert by drafting them in for trivial little jobs. No one likes that.
   
   But when it comes to the heavy lifting, there’s no shame in handing the work over to a real JavaScript geek.

5. Stefan

   1140 days ago

   I tried to avoid JavaScript the last years and do know a little more. But as it’s client-side, you’ll never know if your “so fancy and hip thing” will work. Thus a site should work without it, if there is time and money remaining (most time is not), adding a few lines of code is nice.
   And I like the concept of strict seperation. No code in the markup. If someone needs code, they should attach it to the elements with JavaScript.

6. Max Roeleveld

   1140 days ago

   I agree with the above posters: make sure you have a basic understanding of what it can and cannot do, and where you can rip learn about the rest, and have a javascript guru in your address book. Javascript isn’t that hard, in theory, but the fact that you have browser differences there, as well, makes it a total bitch sometimes.
   
   As for AJAX sexiness (since no site seems to be complete without it, nowadays): have a look at xajax (http://xajax.sourceforge.net). I’m usually not a big fan about frameworks, but this one doesn’t try to do the impossible + make coffee as well, and it allows you to easily pump info from PHP to javascript.
   
   But then again, is this really John posting? There’s no swearing in the post… =]

7. J??rgen Arnor G?•rds?? Lom

   1140 days ago

   I concider my own lack of [above basic] JavaScript knowledge…
   
   I completely stopped using JavaScript/DHTML around 2000; when I realized how much I was overusing it… Now I regret that decition, as I would love to get into the AJAX business…
   
   However – as a frontend designer, I don’t think you need to be any sort of Shaun Inman-type guru – but it does give you a lot more freedom to know that you’re able to tackle the tech yourself… And cheaper as well!

8. Matthew Pennell

   1140 days ago

   I have nothing relevant to say (and largely agree with Drew), just wanted to say that I read the entry title as “Is there a hole in my skull yet?”
   
   Trepanning in blogging, that’s a new one for 2005…

9. Mark

   1140 days ago

   Just learn it. You could have picked up the basics in the time it took to write that post!
   
   Take a look at this to get you started.

10. David

    1140 days ago

    I think Drew makes a good point. If you recognise that javascript is a specialty skill and that there are people who excel at that, it’s important to recognise it and give them their due by calling on them to step in when necessary. This doesn’t mean that you ask them (or expect them) to do the more ‘menial’ javascript work.
    
    It’s like web design in general. Anyone can build a website – free tools like Blogger mean you can get a web presence in minutes. This meets the needs of many, many people. However, if they need something more, they should hire a web designer.
    
    I don’t do my own accounts – because my accountant is better placed to do it. I don’t handle my legal work because my solicitor is better placed. etc. But I can complete my cash flow spreadsheets and I can draft a letter.

11. lm

    1140 days ago

    ok its a hole but then you read:
    “posted 12:38pm EST Tue Nov 22 2005
    http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2005Nov/gee20051122033430.htm
    (whoahhh:
    ok a little phrase from geek.com news:}
    “Users of Microsoft’s Internet Explorer got a rude surprise today in the form of a “zero-day” exploit warning. Proof-of-concept viruses have demonstrated the vulnerability in the wild, and various security websites are quickly upgrading this exploit to “critical” status.The exploit takes advantage of a flaw in how IE handles JavaScript….”
    so if you bother to learn it – why not but using it? hardly sometimes.

12. Nathan Pitman

    1140 days ago

    And for future reference. Drew makes a pretty good JavaScript geek. :)

13. Michele

    1140 days ago

    I don’t do much JS and I don’t think it’s a big problem.
    But at the same time, I think it’s better to know something about it, rather than knowing nothing.
    
    There are many useful ways you can use JS that don’t require a big knowledge. So I think it’s worth spending a few hours getting a grasp of it.

14. Cody Lindley

    1140 days ago

    The truth…Yes, it is.

15. Edward J. S. Atkinson

    1140 days ago

    Drew: “In my opinion, however, I think that every front end developer should have at least some basic, light-weight javascript skills.”
    
    That’s pretty much it. Just have a basic knowledge of what it can do. That doesn’t really even mean you have to learn it.
    
    I’m a coding purist and cannot stand the edit which is JavaScript. It’s one of the worst languages to be funneled out of the sewage drains of a bunch of nincompoops. I’ve never personally coded one line, but if I do absolutely have to use it, there are thousands of JavaScript hoard websites out there.
    
    It is most definitely NOT a necessity to being a good designer. The majority of effects that used to be so prevalent are now done with CSS (thank God for that). JS is really almost never necessary. If you have just a basic knowledge of what it can do (you don’t have to know how to code it), then there’s no reason for you to bother yourself learning it.
    
    If you’ve gotten this far without it, why the bloody heck do you need that edit language now? That’s right, ya don’t.
    
    Cheers!

16. Olly

    1140 days ago

    I had the same problem as you until recently – I wondered if it was really worth it.
    
    Then along came a job that needed a bit of client side script – just the basics mind. As the designated front-end guy in the team, I took on the job, learn a bit of JS and that was that. I’ve learnt a bit more since then, but I’m leaving any tricky AJAX stuff to our real development peeps.
    
    That’s a nice story isn’t it? I wonder what the moral is?

17. AkaXakA

    1139 days ago

    I was wondering this myself too actually. But from reading Gavin & Drew’s comments (which for me hit the nail on the head) I’ve nothing to worry about.

18. Mike Stenhouse

    1139 days ago

    In a word: yes. I’ve been using JavaScript more and more over the last couple of years to the extent that, these days, about half my time developing and interface will be spent on JS nice-to-haves. Right now it’s a bonus to have good JavaScript skills but give it a year and it’ll be an essential requirement. That said though, I call myself a ‘web interface developer’ rather than a ‘front-end designer’ so I might be playing a different game…

19. Charlie

    1139 days ago

    I agree with Mike, if you are a front-end designer then IMHO you should have a good understanding of all the tools available to a front end designer. If you want to go beyond laying things out with html and styling them up with css then you have no choice but to learn some javascript.

20. Edward J. S. Atkinson

    1138 days ago

    No Charlie, JS is never a requirement. Unless you’re developing a highly interactive website or a web application, there is no need for it. And anyways, that’s what programmers do. That’s very different from design.
    
    Check out any portfolio of the major designers on the web. How many are replete with JavaScript? None.
    
    JS is a terrible language which should only be used as a last resort. (No offense to all ya’ll JS scripters out there, but it really is a bad language.)

21. Charlie

    1138 days ago

    Hey Edward, chill out dude, I’m not sure why your singleing out my comment but since you have, I’ll reply. John is talking about frontend design, not graphic design, if John wants to be a graphic designer then no, he has no need for javascript, but he doesn’t he has specifically stated in the original post that he is a frontend designer, which means dealing with what gets sent to the browser or other user agents, the only language that gives you any advanced control over whats going on at the frontend is javascript, the fact that you don’t like javascript is irrelevant, its the only choice we have. To use an analogy, an architect could design the most wonderfull looking buildings imaginable, but if he has no idea about levels of stress in the brickwork then they will fall down, he needs to expand his knowledge beyond just making things look good, its the same with web design. If he doesn’t need to worry about javascript, then he doesn’t need to worry about semantics or accessibility either, lets just make things pretty, thats all that matters, right? And I could point to several so called, ‘major designers’ on the web who know plenty of javascript, Shaun Inman, Mike Davison, Dunstin Orchard, and probably 100’s of others.

22. Edward J. S. Atkinson

    1137 days ago

    I thought front end was referring to his prominence or something like that…

23. goodwitch

    1136 days ago

    A hole in your skivvies? (walking around u and observing u closely) Nope, I don’t see any inappropriate holes.
    
    As long as you know your strengths and limits, and who to turn to for javascript expertise…your work will continue to be quite holy rather than holey.

24. Nathan Smith

    1134 days ago

    I’ve been asking myself this same question lately. I went out and bought DOM Scripting and Foundations of AJAX to see what this fuss is all about.

25. Alex Armstrong

    1134 days ago

    I’m faced with a similar problem. A couple of years ago I knew enough javascript to get by in my day-to-day role. However since then I’ve focused my skill set on standards based xhtml and CSS.
    After I attended @media I realised that many of my javascript skills are out of date and don’t really degrade gracefully, so I’m just trying to refresh my skillset now.

26. Dan

    1134 days ago

    (I’ll be hosnest, I only read the post not the comments, but here’s my take:)
    
    4 months ago I’d have said no – you don’t need the JS. Then I learnt about Ajax – and you absolutely do have a hole in your skill set .
    
    Learn some JS, learn some XML and learn how you can make unique interfaces that you couldn’t before!
    
    Even designers know html – now they sould know JS, too.

Christmas gifts?

Recently

The last seven posts made on this site.

• Please check your Joshuaink subscription
• Transferring money abroad
• Leaf blower
• A charitable calendar that actually looks worth having
• Borat meets David Letterman
• Win A Copy of Simon Collison's CSS Book
• My job does have value... damn you!

Geeky shiteMeta

• Subscribe to this site
• Gvisit visitor logs