Joshuaink: The reason you don't win design awards

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The reason you don't win design awards

Tuesday June 21, 2005

A: I want you, yes you, to design and build me a website.

B: Sounds good, let's get to it.

A: I have designed my own logo.

B: Oh look, it's some letters encased in a coloured box, how nice. Okay, no problem, I can still taste that top spot on StyleGala.

A: I've also taken my own photography, I bought a really nice digital camera yesterday, should do the trick no?

B: [sigh]

A: Oh, yeah, and I want to update it all myself.

B: Do you know any HTML at all?

A: Haytchteeem-the what, the who now? I was going to do it in FrontPage Express, no?

B: [louder sigh]

A: And with all my handy work we should be able to do it real cheap, no?

B: [Looking for coat]

A: And how long do you reckon before it's done, two, three weeks?

B: [Driving off into the sunset banging head against steering wheel]

A: Pah! What a cowboy he turned out to be. Now, where did I put that copy of FrontPage Express.

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mayvelous

1724 days ago

Speaking from the experience i guess. That’s why we should avoid smart a$$ customers. Good one. :-)
Jeff Smith

1724 days ago

So sad, yet so true. I think the reason I’m not doing as much freelance work anymore is because I refuse to do these jobs. Why design a great website, only to have someone butcher it with FP. Where’s the art in that?
Jeff Wheeler

1724 days ago

Surely this isn’t a conversation you had, is it?
Ryan Marshall

1724 days ago

I get exactly the same thing sometimes. Customer wants their own work put in, be able to edit anything from their own end, etc.

I try to steer them in the correct direction by providing my professional opinion and (if possible) the opinion of someone else in the same field. If the client still insists, I either work out a compromise or walk away.
Joshua Kendall

1724 days ago

My site is done in FrontPage, you just have to have experience with HTML. Damn “Themes” are what makes everyone hate FrontPage.

It’s a great program for the beginner to intermediate designer, but after that you should find something else. I prefer Dreamweaver, but since I couldn’t afford it I went with FrontPage.

[sigh]

Oh well I am creating a online magazine site in it (Dreamweaver) now (perks of being a college student, you can use all of the software for anything as long as it’s not commercial…or illegal).

FrontPage just has a bad reputation because Microsoft wanted EVERYONE to be able to throw a site together. Only thing I like about FP more than Dreamweaver is the publish feature. FP gives me more control and “Publish” & “Import” sounds better than “Put” & “Get”.

Got to love setting up templates. Set them up right and even a one fingered monkey couldn’t screw it up.
Anonymous

1724 days ago

Thank you for this! It’s a treasure.

I teach HTML, CSS, DW, etc. You wouldn’t believe how many students I get because they – or their employers – are too cheap to pay a web designer. I watch as they destroy beautiful professionally-designed sites because they want to do their own thing. The sad part? They can’t see the difference between quality and crap. They really can’t.

For some twisted reason, they (or their employers) think it will save money to fire the web design team, then waste thousands of staff hours trying to replace that team with people who aren’t qualified and often have little aptitude for computer stuff or design. Doesn’t make any financial sense to me, but hey? What do I know? Apparently any monkey can create websites for free.

On the bright side, students who stay with my courses learn to code valid html and css. They learn to code accessible sites, they learn some design principles, etc. But even the best ones will take years to reach anywhere near the professional level. And one of the lessons I’m always trying to get across is “you either pay the professional to do the job, or you spend a decade becoming the professional who can do the job.”
Phil Sherry

1724 days ago

Did anyone else see the irony in the Google add which followed that article?

“Corporate Logo Design
Amazing Prices For Company Logos! See Our Samples. 72-hr turnaround”
Matt Robin

1724 days ago

FrontPage Express! #Laughs #

(Thanks for that John – I needed a laugh first thing and this blog did the trick!) Having problems with morons again are you?
Matt Robin

1724 days ago

Joshua: I hope you were kidding with your remarks about FrontPage weren’t you?

“FrontPage just has a bad reputation because Microsoft wanted EVERYONE to be able to throw a site together.”

Yes, and making a product that generates lots of really crappy, invalid markup doesn’t exactly help either – that’s the REAL reason it is so damn crap!

“Got to love setting up templates.”.....

This sole novelty feature will seem redundant after you create CSS templates in Dreamweaver (do I mean ‘templates’? No, sorry…I just mean ‘files that you use ofton and can find easily’).

FP is bloated rubbish….good intro for beginners..and then an even better advert for trying to learn web design properly…and fast! #Laughs #
Kalle

1724 days ago

Holy hell!
That situation is such a nightmare. I guess then is the time that you’ve got to stand up and just say it out loud.

“If you want me to design your site, you’ll have to do as I tell you. The way I want it to be done is the cheapest and most effective way.”

...Eh, what am I talking about – only an eighteen-year wannabe web designer that donesn’t know $hit about anything when it happens.

Nevermind me. I understand that you’re really frustrated now. But hey – it could be worse. =)
Martin Smith

1724 days ago

Heh heh!.... boo-hoo… heh heh heh…boo hoo… heh, boo, heh, boo…..heh…. thats not funny! :o(
Bob Gringle

1724 days ago

This is such a gringle – I love it!
Kev

1724 days ago

Commiserations but thanks for sharing ;o)
Frode Danielsen

1724 days ago

Haha, lovely chat…

And I’m just about to head out to a meeting with a client who finally got some time available to start thinking about their new site. I’ll be discussing a sketch they have drawn to show me what they think it should look like… Woopdidoo. Let’s hope they don’t tie my hands down – cause they got money, and I need it, damnit.
Stefan

1724 days ago

That’s the curse of (web)design… There will always be a cousin, son or employee who is a real “professional”.
They are proud of there crap. They’ll hate you, because someone else commissioned you to do his site, logo or papers.
And after the work is finished they can’t see any difference to their work…
When it comes to constructing a car, no one would do it on their own, but designing is something “everyone can do” – at least they think so.
Darice de Cuba

1724 days ago

It is for these kind of clients that I came up with 11 things about websites Most sad is you don’t have to be that long in the business to come across them. Companies should be educated about websites, just like they know about how to handle print ads and marketing, leave it to the professionals.
Jens Meiert

1724 days ago

Acquiring clients and leading them to the light is not an easy job, that is right. Emphasize the economic advantages of Web standards, accessibility, and usability, and then combine everything with a performance-related contract. That’s my favorite recipe, and it usually tastes great.
Tom

1724 days ago

The “boss” still uses frontpage.
tom

1724 days ago

Jeez. When I first saw the title in my RSS reader, I thought you were talking about me. :P but then… it wasn’t quite me.

Yea, I’ve seen those customers who says they have “everything,” and I should just put them together so that they can update it later..
Simon

1724 days ago

Your view will all depends on how much work you have in the pipeline.

My broadband doesn’t run on love alone….

I like to call these clients “Private Clients”...shhh!
Rob Mientjes

1724 days ago

I don’t have a car, so I just strangle the bastard. Saves lots of money on the car taxes.

Nice post, though. I really can relate :)
isil flynn

1724 days ago

I feel your pain (as does everyone else who commented ;) ) I think we’ve all run across clients who seem to either be too cheap to let us do our jobs properly or are just control freaks who feel they must be in charge of every detail. It’s likely they don’t understand the difference between construction and design – anyone can build a site using FP (or pretty much any other html editor) but designing it so that it’s accessible, cross platform, useable and aesthetic…well that’s a totally different story.
Joshua Kendall

1724 days ago

Actually I wasn’t kidding when I was talking about FrontPage Matt.

“Yes, and making a product that generates lots of really crappy, invalid markup doesn’t exactly help either – that’s the REAL reason it is so damn crap!”

I code my own markup so it validates.

” This sole novelty feature will seem redundant after you create CSS templates in Dreamweaver (do I mean ‘templates’? No, sorry...I just mean ‘files that you use ofton and can find easily’).”

Already do that with CSS files.

“files that you use ofton and can find easily”

Isn’t that the basic definition of a template?

FrontPage is what I learned to use in high school in my web design classes (don’t worry I was the only one who knew how to code HTML by hand when the class started).

I have seen enough thrown together FrontPage “sites” to realize that some people just won’t take you seriously if you use it. All I have to say to that is it’s their loss.

Oh well off to code some XHTML Strict Dreamweaver “Templates” and a few CSS files.
Joshua Kendall

1724 days ago

Also my FP sites all are accessible…well not the museum one I did, but that was before I got introduced to standards and divs.

Anyone have a link to a tutorial to explain how use/read those damn 508 and AAA validators?

Oh and so I don’t have to wait for a Photoshop thread. I don’t use it, I use Paint Shop Pro….7. (perhaps I should get that updated)
Nick Tatt

1724 days ago

I think you’ve been eavesdropping. I have had virtually the same conversation recently.

I think this type of attitude is caused by the fact the the web is still in its infancy and in years gone by that may have been how it was done. Now as the web and all that work with it grow up and use more productive methods we need to educate our potential clients of the benefits of doing it the right way.

That said, sometimes it is better not to take on a project that you know will end in tears.
isuadam

1724 days ago

Sometimes there’s just nothing more satisfying or powerful than firing a client.
Joshua Kendall

1724 days ago

You mean people still run Windows 98? When I had Win 98 I never could get FP Express to open (guess that ended up being a good thing huh), and had completly forgotten about it until you brought this up.
FriedGeek

1724 days ago

Isn’t that always the way it is. I love the….

A: So do you have a digital version of your logo?

B: Our logo is on our card… here you go.

A: .... $19 at OfficeMax right? I think I’ve seen that globe before.

B: Yes.

A: So… do you have a digital version of your logo?

B: Our logo is on the card.

A: ....

B: OfficeMax should have it.
inguna

1724 days ago

Q: “I saw this site xxxxxx (insert a name). Can you make me EXACTLY THE SAME DESIGN?’

I come from a printing world. It’s the same story. One of my all time favorite moments was when a president of a large bank instructed a designer what font she should use.
The sad part: people really don’t see the difference.
Daniel Brennan

1724 days ago

FP and DW are both crap. get yourself a plain-text editor, learn HTML, CSS, and Javascript, and write your own stuff! DW and FP leave tons of crappy propritary code and are usually invalid HTML. Make a site worth putting your name on.
monkeyinabox

1724 days ago

“I think you’ve been eavesdropping. I have had virtually the same conversation recently. ”

Ditto here. I had one of those and it started with “just a some gallery of products” to a full shopping cart with over 6,000 products with photos. I could smell all the danger signs and ran away as fast as possible.

Wooooo.
Simon

1724 days ago

Steady on there Danny Boy. DW is a top class bit of kit, know your notepad yes, but dis DW at your peril.

Got a feeling that I’m on my own here…..
Nathan Smith

1724 days ago

Excellent. I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Sounds like alot of churches and non-profits I deal with.

I agree, FrontPage (in all forms) stinks, and DW rocks.
Julian

1724 days ago

A common experience, but you wrote it down very nicely ;-)
JaX

1724 days ago

Haytchteeemell?

Haha, love it =D
Matthew

1724 days ago

Ah, I recently went through the logo-on-the-business-card fiasco with a client … I ended up using the logo from the card, but had to mutate it in Photoshop to make it look decent. Luckily we agreed on one of the five mutations I presented.

And DWMX is indeed a fine editor. You’ve just got to use it properly, and know better than to rely on it for everything.

Amusing portrayal, John. :)
Matt Robin

1724 days ago

FrontPage/FrontPage Express = Crap for generating it’s own bloated code. Dreamweaver MX = excellent because it will do as much as little as you want it to. Hand coding with a text editor = an artform that dismisses the need for using big, heavy tools (as in software). grins knowingly

My first ever encounter with FrontPage was at University when I was just starting to learn HTML – the rubbish it produced convinced me there and than how bad it is. (And there’s no need to persevere with a bad tool – if it’s crap – it gets dumped!) Older versions of Dreamweaver were only marginally better…but it has steadily improved. I thought Dreamweaver 4 was very competant, and MX-spec has proved to be even better IMO. I still hand-code in Word sometimes just because that’s what I started off with originally..but I’ll use Dreamweaver also as an interface.

Joshua: ” (“files that you use ofton and can find easily”)

Isn’t that the basic definition of a template?”

Sorry, I think you missed the point that I was being sarcastic…read my original post again and wonder: ‘hang on, he’s a sarcastic Englishman – perhaps he is being cheeky about the templates statement?’

Also…

Joshua: “Anyone have a link to a tutorial to explain how use/read those damn 508 and AAA validators?”

You could try this one for 508: http://www.webaim.org/standards/508/checklist

for AAA:
http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WAI-WEBCONTENT-19990505/

:)
Schultzy

1724 days ago

Looks at Google Frontpage advert, Must get that havnt got that.
Calum M. Heriot

1724 days ago

Me Three.

My most rescent client gave me a bunch of leaflets etc with the company logo on them to choose from. So i choose the biggest one (‘cos they were all the same quality), scanned it into photoshop and found out the logo is squint. I ended up rotating the bottom and cropping the top half.

As for Frontpage or Dreamweaver, as to my knowledge, none of my clients have heard of them as they are not “tech savvy” enough. As for me, i only ever use Photoshop and Notepad for my creations.
Alexander Berglund

1724 days ago

Is there an other kind of people out there? I mean those who really doesn’t ask all these dumb questions?

If there are… damn, I think I might find my clients at the wrong place or something. That is something I have to put up with almost everyday.

A few weeks ago I was bored and offered to redo a site for a girl just for the fun of it. So I made the changes, sent the stuff over and then I see it on the net the next day. Nothing was working as it should.
“Oh, eh, you think you can help me with this? I added some things in Frontpage Express and suddenly nothing worked. Not even the JavaScript Iadded”. I actually banged my head to the desk 5 times before I could answer – “Sure”.
Calum M. Heriot

1724 days ago

Yeah, its one of the reasons im learning more advanced PHP. So that, for now, i can adapt a text editor like MovableType for people to use with there sites, and eventually create my own package to ship out with my designs.

Deffinately going to have to put it through rigurous BETA testing to make sure it is “Joe User” Proof though.

...
Matt Robin

1724 days ago

Calum M. Heriot: “Deffinately going to have to put it through rigurous BETA testing to make sure it is “Joe User” Proof though.”

Is anything truly going to be ‘Joe User’ proof?
#raises an eye-brow with doubt #

I agree with learning more PHP to achieve these aims (it’s one of the reasons I might be doing more with PHP in the future too)...but isn’t it a bit like ‘reinventing the wheel’ just so people can make minor content changes? I wish you all the best with your coding endeavours. :)
Nice Paul

1724 days ago

Oh, how I love clients like that. No, wait… the other thing.

Today I received a request for a quote for a site. They thoughtfully attached a PDF of exactly how they wanted it to look (except with lots of movement in Flash), and that they wanted it to launch asap… and that they needed the price to be as tight as possible as they have no budget allocated for it.
mstyle

1723 days ago

’ Haytchteeem-the what, the who now? ’

Simply brilliant! :)
Jon

1723 days ago

You mentioned FrontPage… Now your Google Ads are trying to sell me FrontPage Training… Does such a thing exist?
Anonymous

1723 days ago

Front Page training does exist, yes.

One day years ago my boss told me “hey, we’re offering Front Page classes starting next month, and you get to teach them!” Oh. I decided to suck it up and learn the program really well, and see if I couldn’t overcome my predjudice and learn to love it.

I tried. Taught FP for two years. Finally told my boss that I refused to teach this horrible program anymore, because I think it’s very bad software, and I don’t want to teach anything I wouldn’t recommend to my students. I was willing to quit my job if necessary to get away from FP.

The FP classes were offered around to other instructors. Like me, all refused. And that is why the place where I teach no longer offers Front Page classes.

Other places do still have FP classes, though. Mind-boggling.
Levi

1722 days ago

Clients are evil, you don’t supply your own bricks for a builder to build your house. Good move on running away, it’s the only solution.
Calum M. Heriot

1721 days ago

Matt Robin : Is anything truly going to be ‘Joe User’ proof?
#raises an eye-brow with doubt #

I agree, nothing will ever be ‘Joe User’ proof no matter how hard we all try. They’ll still find something to break.

Maybe we should resort to violence…

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