Joshuaink: It's all about that man whitey

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It's all about that man whitey

Friday June 10, 2005

This is difficult post for me to tackle, I am not all that good at expressing my deeper thoughts in words, never have been, and so I just want to be clear before I begin that my purpose here is not to offend anyone and I may get a little lost along the way. If you are unsure what I mean at any point, please mail me for clarity.

This is all started with a post by Andrea Schwandt-Arbogast, followed by some comments, followed by an email. Andrea made comment on me becoming a judge on the Web Standards Awards weekly panel. Not a nasty comment by any means but it raised some deeper questions that hadn't even ever occurred to me.

When I took on the job, the only thing that concerned me was whether people would think me worthy enough to be making these sorts of judgments, i.e. will I be a good addition to the WSA or a bad choice? Time will tell I guess. It hadn't ever occurred to me, though, that I was part of some dominant force in the world of web standards. That I was yet another English speaking, middle class, white male taking a post, that in all honesty, helps give me a little more exposure.

It hadn't occurred to me because, as ye olde English saying goes, sometimes you can't see the trees for the woods. I hadn't occurred to me because I strongly believe that race and gender don't matter. By that I mean, I judge a person on their skills and/or whether I actually take a liking to their personality and not their sex or the colour of their skin.

Perhaps worth considering, though, is that whilst we are our own little community, we are still a part of the bigger picture and I think the world we live in has some really worrying problems. The war on terror is causing some seriously deep and damaging divisions which will take many years to heal, if they ever can be. I also don't think women are treated as true equals in society and there is evidence of this simply by switching on the TV and looking at how advertisers target certain products very much at the traditional women, who is at home doing the dishes and looking after the kids. There are stories of employers being reluctant to take on women because they may want to go off and start a family. I have heard of women being paid less than their contemporaries, purely because they are women. And of course we have the whole history, by way of example, of things like a deeply flawed British Empire and the social inequalities in America and these are both, still to this day, making themselves felt.

I made a choice a few years back, I decided to look after my son full time. I took him to play school, went shopping with him, cooked his lunch, I took the traditional role of Mum if you like. And whilst I was never made to feel unwelcome, It was always a bit of curiosity for people. Are you taking a break from work? they would ask. Do you really look after him full time, how do you find it? Questions they would never ask a woman. The reasons I did it are simple, I wanted to spend time with my son and do it properly, not half knackered at the end of a working day 20 minutes before he went to bed. I only point this out because it works in both directions, if a man steps into a role that is not "traditionally" his, he will get a little taste of how it feels to be in a minority.

My point being, I guess, that like it or not, consciously or unconsciously we are all susceptible to some conditioning imposed on us by our individual societys and the media at large. Our opinions may well be shaped by our own judgment but are also formed based on the information we are given. What effect then if that information is subtly sexist and/or racist in some way?

But wait a minute, this is the so called web standards community. We are not some bunch of sublty racist and sexist white men are we? Determined to keep out all but the white man? I don't believe that for a minute, we are probably some of the most liberal, open and accepting people in the world, aren't we?

So that brings me back to the questions being raised, where are all the women in web standards? Why isn't there more ethnic diversity in our relatively small community? Is it because what we do just happens to be something that, as a general rule, interests white males more than anyone else. Is there no real cultural representation because those who are not white and male are, generally, working in other areas of IT? Is it because people are simply not pointing out, or making a big deal out of, their race or gender and we simply failed to notice or see the need to make any issue out of it? Or is it because the platform is not there for those who want to to make their voices heard?

First and foremost I need some answers, I only assume there is a problem because I have been told there is one. If there is a problem and it can be identified then maybe it can be fixed but it needs to be fixed properly. By that I mean that if there is a problem to be fixed we don't get ourselves in a situation where we feel we need to be charitable to a person based on gender or race, that would be a very rocky foundation wouldn't it? By that I mean it's not the job of me or my white male contemporaries to fix it alone but it is our responsibility to participate willingly and I believe that much is already in place.

In fact in writing this post I have left myself with more questions than answers and I really don't know where to go, if anywhere, from here but then I guess that is why blogs have comments.

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Hayo Bethlehem

1735 days ago

Maybe it’s Just the Way Things Are, no matter how out of balance that may seem.
Pierce

1735 days ago

I don’t know if there are answers. If you’re not discriminating on an individual basis then there’s probably not a whole lot more you can do.

Webdesign, although it pains me to say it, is partly an extension of the IT industry, which is dominated by white men. There aren’t hundreds of womens’ webdesign portfolio sites being passed over by everyone. There just aren’t. You come across maybe one for every 30 or 50 mens’ sites.

Also, redressing imbalances is a tricky, tricky business. Featuring someone in Stylegala or the Vault because they are not a white male is discriminatory also.

The only way to avoid being discriminatory is to judge suitability, for whatever purpose, on skill alone. Which I think is a lot easier on the Internet than in person. You’re less inclined to be subtly effected by your culturally instilled prejudices.
Jon

1735 days ago

On a similar note, the web does seem to be dominated by the west mainly because we have easier access to technology, which is a shame because I think we’re missing out on some potentially execellent creative work from other nations, that have demonstrated amazing art and creativity over the years.

One example I’ve seen is http://www.swikiri.com/ which aims to bring together designers from all over Africa and showcase their creative talents.

Its not just gender and/or skin colour that dominates the design/creative industry, your place of birth can have an effect too and I can’t wait for the day when people are treated equally in industry regardless of age/gender/colour or place of birth…
Martin W

1735 days ago

No one is ever going to be truly satisifed – if it’s not too many men – it could be too many Brits, too many Europeans or too many Americans etc, etc. We can all find fault with the make-up of any group.

You could argue that the whole of the judging panel should not be made up of developers, designers or experts – but simply those with the disabilities who actually need sites to be designed correctly simply because they can’t use them otherwise. Isn’t that perhaps a more valid point than the age old man v woman, race, religion, animal, vegetable or mineral debate?

And as for Andrea’s comment that ‘CSS Beauty is run by a man, as is the CSS Vault’ – well how is that a conspiracy? Last time I looked there were no restrictions on anyone starting a style gallery or awards site.

Personally I agree with the sentiment that ‘people are simply not pointing out, or making a big deal out of, their race or gender and we simply failed to notice or see the need to make any issue out of it’ – as you know.
Ben

1735 days ago

Its a funny old thing, but as I read your post over my lunchtime sandwhich, I have just been working throughout the morning on a website, financed by the government, which is aimed at bringing more women in Britain into the IT industry. it is aimed at shool children, (specifically around the 12-16 mark I would say) and is designed to generate an interest in IT, be it design, programming, CAD etc.

This indicates to me that IT must be male dominated, but the reaons may not be as clear cut as you suggest. The need of a site such as the above indicates to me that maybe girls are just not interested or encouraged enough to go into the industry whilst at school level. I know on my degree course, there were 10% girls, roughly. And this doesn’t indicate a lack of skill because the highest scoring graduate was one of them.

Not really an anwser, bu just another part of the question, really.
Anthony Casey

1735 days ago

The sort of comparison comes to mind is football. These days, mind, not back in the 70’s and 80’s when there almost certainly was a LOT of racism.

It’s often pointed out about the lack of Asians in professional football. Some people have suggested that this is due to “institutional racism” (whatever that actually is). I strongly belive that if a young Muslim came along, who was a new Owen, Beckham, Gerrard, or whatever then he would be chased by every big club in the country.

It would be ridiculous to ignore someone with that much talent. If they aren’t playing, then there hasn’t been anyone GOOD enough. It’s as simple as that.

If you think about it, it’s not just race either. Weight, height, age, even gender are all factors... and that’s just Paul Gascoigne!

Hold on I’ve lost my point now… anyway you know what I mean.

One other thing. All this webby stuff is pretty anonymous. I mean Mr Oxton, you could – for the sake of this example, and with no offence meant what so ever to anyone (and with tongue firmly in cheek) – actually be a 7ft hermaphrodite called Betty.

The fact of the matter is that we don’t really know. Except, obviously, for the people who have met you in person. In that respect the online world is free of a lot of the opportunities for visual prejudice.

The fact that there aren’t many women, Asians, penguins, or whatever involved in the Web Standards world is simply because not many have come to the fore and stood out.

Whereas you have.

You also have to remember that there are still plenty of us white blokes who are also not on the review panel.

I knew there was a point somewhere.
Matt Wilcox

1735 days ago

“Maybe it’s Just the Way Things Are, no matter how out of balance that may seem.”

Agreed. I’m tired of interfiering people using what they believe ought to be the case as a benchmark, and not the reailty. Why are there so few women in web-standards? Maybe because that’s just the way it is. How many women take an interest in code in general? Why would there be an equl number? more to the point why is it assumed there ought to be an equal number?

Trends exist, there doesn’t have to be a social dysfunction for that. Perhaps it’s just the way it is…
Harry Jones

1735 days ago

In the offline design world sexism and racism are clearly big problems. The college I study at runs one of the UK’s leading fashion courses which is 95% female; but when you think of successful fashion deisgners – John Galliano, Versace, Alexander McQueen, Jimmy Choo – they are nearly all men.

The same pattern can be seen across all design discliplines – architecture, graphic design, film directors etc.

Online I don’t see believe a similar situation can or should exist. Suppose that CSSVault was in fact an old boy’s club and was actively preventing women or ethnic minorities from showing their work. What is stopping you from a) ceasing to use the site b) publicising that its a sexist/racist site c) building your own site?

The whole idea of the internet is that cost, tradition and establishment are removed from the equation. The idea is that you, the individual, are on an equal footing with everyone else.

If you want to change something, change it.
Simon

1735 days ago

Positive discrimination..

I used to work for a music magazine’s website department. The team consisted of five white males, four English and Me. We were asked to hire another graphic designer and immediately decided that we needed a woman to bring balance to the team. We were a typical smelly, scruffy and disorganised bunch. A famine touch was needed

We advertised the post and only had one woman out of 20 applicants.

Her work was fantastic, so we hired her. It turns out that she was as just as much of a lad as we were, in fact, I fought her in the street twice after way to many tequilas.. final score 1 – 1. Dented pride, happy days.

I genuinely believe that the people who raise these issues are doing it not for the sake of others, but to raise their own profile as a caring little people’s champion.
Pierce

1735 days ago

In fairness though Simon, if you decided to hire the woman because she was a woman, you were effectively discriminating against the 19 men who applied to the job as individuals.

Positive discrimination is still discrimination.
Hans

1735 days ago

I’d like to just say this out loud now: For me, to get a my site (or one I’ve designed) featured at WSA is a greater ~~accomplishment~~ dream than being reviewed at Stylegala.

Public approval at Stylegala is a numbers game. The highest any site has ever gotten is 7.4 (with you not far behind, at 7.0!). This is the equivalent of a 74% approval rating. The other quarter either really did not like the site, or they were simply bored/angry/lost/depressed and chose 1 or 2 or 3 instead of actually thinking about their choice.

At WSA, “public approval” only occurs in the comments. People talk, and that’s part of human nature. We’ve grown to accept and listen to what others have to say. We do no have a great understanding of numbers. Assigning a number to a website to show how “good” it is is an extremely arbitrary business. WSA ~~brings back~~ keeps the human way of critiquing.

Also, I believe WSA was around long before CSS Beauty, Stylegala, Unmatched Style, and perhaps even CSS Vault.

By taking this role and reviewing sites for WSA, John, not only are you “getting more exposure” but you’re probably also fulfilling someone’s dream.

If a site’s reviewed on WSA, it’s guaranteed to spread to the other CSS galleries. This effect is less probable with Stylegala, etc.

In short, WSA has a great reputation. Taking a role as a reviewer requires responsibility. WSA was one of the first websites I visited that had to do with CSS in some way (first was hicksdesign). Many people are entering through the gateway that is WSA into the world of CSS and web standards every day. You better make sure nothing goes awry.
Kev

1735 days ago

Well, I went ahead and read the comments at Andrea’s place before I commented here and I have to say I don’t see much for me to get defensive about. Her sole two assertions were:

“whether a site award-worthy or gallery-worthy in this community is being determined almost exclusively by men.”

and that:

“This is not sour grapes, as I have never submitted any of my work to these sites and don’t presume to think that it belongs there. What I do not believe, however, is that there are not more that two women who deserve to be in the group of 29 people who are judging standards-based design.

The first one is definitely true and the second one seems likely to be true to me too. I think more than 7%-ish of web designers are female.

I don’t see anywhere where she’s (sorry Matt :o) ):

”..using what they believe ought to be the case as a benchmark, and not the reailty.”

That said, its a good thing to debate things like this. Maybe it says a lot about me that I read about it here first rather than Andrea’s site?
Nathan

1735 days ago

Racism/Sexism in the web design world is directly effected by the inequalities in the offline world. To say that they do not exist would mean that we can separate ourselves completely, online and offline never knowing one another.

That is impossible. I think the web affords us the opportunity to be ignorant (only for a short time, if you really take interest in someone), but I do not think that inequality cannot exist online.

Recognition of this possibility of inequality gives us hope that we will be conscious of our own decisions and biases, affording us the opportunity to look at others as they truly are, not as we create them in our minds.
Kathy

1735 days ago

Okay. I’m going to go out on a limb here. Although for the record, I hate discussions like this because it’s impossible not to piss somebody off, and I’m probably going to piss off just about everyone. We (women) are out here, designing and blogging. There are many reasons why someone might not know this. I don’t think you can point to one cause and say “There, that’s the reason women aren’t being recognized.” Is there an old boy network? Come on. Of course, there is. And yes, it contributes to the problem. But it isn’t the only cause. Do women have too many obligations (home, work, family, etc.) to find the time necessary to promote themselves? Of course, they do. Study after study shows that, on average, women bear the brunt of home and family responsibilities (while trying to keep up at work at the same time). It takes a lot of time and effort to become known, as just about anyone who blogs seriously understands. And for the most part, your designs and you aren’t going to be known unless you do some self-promotion. However, again, this is just one factor. Do women approach self-promotion differently? Yes, many of them do. Just looking at the list of blogs I read, most male authored blogs are all business, with relatively little personal material, and when it is there it’s mostly for flavoring. Many women approach blogging more holistically. Their blogs often take personal matters, feelings, social politics, etc., more seriously because they’re exploring how these impact their work and work lives. I’m not saying men’s lives don’t impact their work, just that they don’t tend to explore this. It seems to me that many people feel women’s blogs aren’t as serious or as dedicated to, say, design, because of this. So they don’t get ranked well on blogrolls and lists. At any rate, there are many reasons why women designers aren’t as prominent. This is just scratching the surface. But don’t make the mistake of thinking we aren’t here or that some of us (present writer excluded) don’t deserve more recognition and even important roles, such as being a judge for the Web Standards Awards.

Okay, this is just a few thoughts off the top of my head before I have to run and catch a cab. Please, don’t crucify me. If you don’t agree, just tell me why you think I’m wrong. I’m very open to new views, opinions and interpretations.

Jon, you are to be commended for bringing up this topic, particularly in the way you have. Thanks.

P.S. Sorry, but I don’t have time to spell check this.
Kathy

1735 days ago

Man, I’m sorry about the length of my comment. I promise never to do that again.
JohnO

1735 days ago

I’m going in the direction Ben is going. Exaggeration, a great way of making a point. There aren’t enough male ballet dancers. This is a problem and is discriminating. [Granted I haven’t the faintest clue the ratio, just working off stereotypes].

Could it possibly be that men just aren’t as interested as women? Could it not also be that women just aren’t as interested in IT as men are? It very well may be. I think we can find the answer – the question, for clarification, is – Do women not enter the IT field because they feel it is discriminatory, or because they are uninterested? The only way to find out is to ask them.

Furthermore, I believe I can say as part of the younger generation (I’ve just graduated college, no offense to you Gen Xer’s or Boomer’s) racial tension is less and less of an issue. Granted, I’m accross the pond from you Brits, but I think the observation is worthwhile.

And to keep the discussion light-hearted: White-men are the most hated racial group in the world! (Satire, yes, but behind every satirical statement lies some grain of truth… )
Mike Stenhouse

1735 days ago

This is the web. You have no way of knowing my gender, colour, nationality or politics unless I tell you. I could be writing from anywhere in the world… Surely this makes it the most egalitarian medium ever? The catch is that you have to be online to participate, and that’s dependant on your available resources, be it money, time, government or culture.

Anyway, I don’t think there’s any solution to the lack of female bloggers, for example. If, as Kathy says, they have more offline commitments then that’s not likely to change. I’m against positive discrimination as much as I’m against prejudice. Everyone would like to think that they’ve got to where they are on their own merits…
goodwitch

1735 days ago

reminds me of what malcolm gladwell said in Blink about orchestra auditions and the importance of thin slicing the information you need when making decisions. A screen was added between the auditioning musicians and the judges, allowing the judges to truly listen with their ears, and not with their eyes. “In the past thirty years, since screens became commonplace, the number of women in the top U.S. orchestras has increased fivefold.”

i believe that the web standards community is focused on talent, abilities and quality results. i see them as an inclusive, delightfully rebellious band of technologists working towards universal access.

and i love the challenge of andrea’s question, because we are all so very human, and need to be reminded to challenge our decision methods and seek that thin slice of information that truly helps us make brilliant choices.
Martin W

1735 days ago

Positive discrimination can often be the worst form of discrimination basically because those involved think they are “doing good” and you should be grateful.

I have been to a ton of interviews where halfway through I realise – I’m here because it ticks that little box which says you’ve interviewed a certain section of the population – you haven’t even read my CV properly, you went straight to the Equality section.

I’ve walked out of – ohh lets see 3 interviews for those reasons alone.
Oscar Duignan

1735 days ago

I havent read the comments or all of actual post but im white a male with a middle class background living in england and a web developer, I dont consider myself racist but because of my race and background i am sometimes considered racist is this not a racist preconception itself. Why are people even considered racist if the business or industry they work in is dominated by people of there physical ‘attributes’. I think i remeber reading somewhere that over half of the worlds population is a minority (not sure if its true). I believe that race is only a problem as long as we make it a problem, its a preconception that if an industry is mainly dominated by people of a certain race or ethinicity that they are all racist in some way, If this was true then basketball is a racist sport because it is mainly dominated by black players.

Myself I grew up by the river thames with most of my best friends of a different race than myself, i did not say ok im going to have to make friends with people of a different ethinicity than myself so i dont look racist i didnt even know what racism was until i was about eight.

This is just a small part of what i feel on the subject but it isn’t a particularly well formed statement but ive done my best.
Andrea

1735 days ago

Yikes. I slept in this morning and woke up to this.

To clarify my position on the whole issue:

The question is not “Why aren’t there more women?”. There are lots of women in web standards, and we don’t need positive discrimination to get there. (I’m going to leave the ethnic minority issue out of my discussion, because that wasn’t part of my post). The question is this—If most of the judges for these particular galleries are men, is this creating a vicious circle of designs by men coming to the forefront?

I am well aware that the answer to this question may be “No.” In fact I hope it is. I think it is important to consider the question, however.

I do not think there’s a conspiracy, either. Kathy hit it right on the head—there are many factors that contribute to women being less well-known. I don’t think any of those factors are malicious treatment my men.
Matt Robin

1735 days ago

I’m still laughing because John wrote out that lovely long, well-crafted and considerate blog article….and then right after it is a Google Ad that says:

“Can Fish Oil really help?”

Sorry, I need to compose myself, get a coffee and come back with a better comment in a moment! # laughing at Google #
Matt Robin

1735 days ago

Hmm, it took me AGES to read through all of your thoughtful comments – and there’s little I can add that hasn’t already been said!

Discrimination on the web (or even the mere perception of it) can strongly be linked with identical trends in the IT industry as a whole (programming, software develpment, hardware, etc.). ...But less so on the web because (as John rightly stated at the outset) the webdesign community is very open-minded and anti-discriminatory. I don’t think for a minute that WSA discriminated against women by choosing John – I think he got that post on merit. If a woman had got the same post on merit then no one would have made any comments about it being related to her gender. But this blog article is a good one because it raises some consideration for the topic and asks ‘Why aren’t there more women among the elite of the web design world?’

I think Kathy’s (long – but that’s OK!) comment came closest to answering this particular question in the most relevant way – especially about women’s blogs being more hollistic and women having less time to do as much online as their male counterparts.

I don’t agree that Andrea Schwandt-Arbogast’s remarks should have been exclusively pinned on John – but he’s taken the comments under great consideration and it’s obvioulsy struck a nerve (highlighting what a decent person he is!)...if he was discriminatory – he would have dismissed Andrea outright.
I do think Andrea has raised a good point though….but WSA are not really at fault here (again: Kathy’s remarks seem closer to finding a real-world suggestion for why a woman isn’t on the WSA panel of judges yet).

I think a lot of other great points were raised. I like the way Jon’s earlier comment actually tried to bring the focus on how the web design community seems largely to be a ‘western world’ thing…missing out on the abundant talents of the other countries (more economic and political reasons for why that hasn’t matured though…rather than outright racism).

Martin W: Your earlier comment about…. “You could argue that the whole of the judging panel should not be made up of developers, designers or experts – but simply those with the disabilities who actually need sites to be designed correctly simply because they can’t use them otherwise.”

I think you mean ‘Accessibility’ and not ‘Web Standards’ – if you don’t know the difference…then go to Accessify.com or one of the other accessibility sites to find out.

So, how many people did I piss off? Answers in a hat please….hat thrown over a bridge.
Graham Bancroft (House Husband)

1735 days ago

I can’t imagine for a minute that the judges on aforementioned panel would look at a submitted site and after deciding that it looks great and it adheres very nicely to web standards etc, would then look at the name (what else would you have to go on) of the designer and then decide that it’s not good enough. Isn’t the beauty of the Internet that you essentially know nothing about who is behind the creation, blog, business or otherwise.

This (CSS/Web Standards) is a wonderful community who’s arms as far as I can see are open wide to anybody.

I’m now off to read up on culture, sociology, psychology, racism and also to read this again.
Cam

1735 days ago

This issue has been covered off a couple of times by Doug Bowman over at Stopdesign (and here).

It’s a bit of a curly one really, and kind of strange. Most of the graphic designers I know are women, but most of the web developers are men.

There are some notable exceptions to all of this, though—Eris Free is one of the higher-profile women designers out there.
Cam

1735 days ago

Oops.. should have specified that the issue of women on the web as having been covered off by Doug.

As for other under-represented groups, I just don’t think there is a simple answer (simple enough to put on one web page, anyway).
Andrea

1735 days ago

I don’t agree that Andrea Schwandt-Arbogast’s remarks should have been exclusively pinned on John

They weren’t.

but he’s taken the comments under great consideration and it’s obvioulsy struck a nerve (highlighting what a decent person he is!)

This is definitely true. I hope I have made it clear to John in my post, the comments there, and the email exchange we had that my comments were in no way a personal indictment of him. I truly believe he earned his post on merit, and that we will do a great job.
Andrea

1735 days ago

er, that should read “he will do a great job”
Matt Robin

1734 days ago

John: “I haven’t taken it personally and Andrea and I have indeed had a chat and I have no issue with the post she made at all.”

I’m glad to hear it. :)

What did you think of the opinions expressed? (There were quite a few!)
a.d.

1734 days ago

This comment is with regards to ethnicity within the web standards community – I for one am south asian and have been reading quietly all your blogs and posts.

And I know there are more like me out there…. but we are the silent bunch. Maybe is the language barrier… maybe we just don’t have anything interesting to blog… but web standards do thrive within other ethnicities… you just have to go looking for it.

To us, the west always ruled… its just the way of life… so its only natural that when it comes to web standards, once again, it is the west. I’m not complaining here – I have learned everything I need to learn from your posts… and I do live in Canada (though not a Canadian)... and I’m sure by coming out and posting this, more “quiet” minorities will open up and contribute to the growing web standards community.
Matthew Pennell

1734 days ago

I certainly remember the series of “Where Are All The Women” posts a few months ago – I think Eris and Molly both chimed in too – and one conclusion was certainly the lack of self-promotion. Us men (especially westerners) crave the attention and adoration of our peers, so we (consciously or not) blog more, write more ‘useful’ articles to get linked to, comment more (for the attention and traffic as much as to participate in discussion – go on, admit it), and just generally put it about a hell of a lot more than female designers/bloggers/standardistas do.

@media attendance was probably 90-95% male – and Veerle was probably the only female ‘name’ present.
Joshua Kendall

1734 days ago

Personally if I come across I site that doesn’t blind me with bright colors (usually a certain tint of lime green, hot pink, or yellow) I visit for a while and read…then IF it is interesting, helpful, or funny I bookmark it.

Later when I revisit it IF it has been updated I read it again. After a while IF it has not been updated for lets say a week and a half (I can understand that people are busy and have lives) I remove it from my bookmarks. It doesn’t matter who the person is.

I visit sites like PlasticPilots (www.plasticpilots.com) and CSS Beauty (www.cssbeauty.com) daily, and I always check to see who has applied for an award (in the case of PP) and who has been featured (in the case of CSSB). Personally half of the sites on PP don’t gain my attention because the either look horrible (not to be mean, but FrontPage Template horrible, but I still poke around them) or they don’t interest me.

I visit other designers sites as well:

-joshuaink.com (well duh!)
-seventytwo.co.uk (Alistair Holt)
-chloeholt.co.uk (Chloe Holt (Alistair’s Sister), although not much, but just because it is tradional prints and paintings)
-jeremy-fields.com (Jeremy Fields)
-patrickhaney.com (Patrick Haney)
-davyvandenbremt.be (Davy Van Den Bremt)
-and jonshoe.com (John Shoemaker)

I know there is only one female designer in that list, and that I even said “although not much, but just because it is tradional prints and paintings”, but that has nothing to do with the design, it has to do with I am just not that interested in traditional prints and paintings.

If someone would like to provide me with links to female designers web sites so that I may look at them and add them to my bookmark list, then go right ahead. I have no problem doing so, but to be more on topic, the part about “CSS Beauty being run by a man”, well I simply have this to say.

NO SHIT SHERLOCK!

He created it, it’s his site, why would he have anyone else running other than himself.

Would you want your site to be run by someone else?

I know I wouldn’t, but it’s not because of their gender or race.

It the fact that it is MY site, I ponied up the money to purchase the hosting and the domain name, I am the one who purchased the graphics program and the web design program, I AM the one who took the time to program and design the site, I am the one who is setting up Textpattern and creating the new design.

The point is that if a site appeals to you no matter what the gender, race, or nationality of the person you will visit it.

Sorry to ramble and take up this much room, but oh well. [sarcasm]Maybe I should create my own award site and really make it one sided by only awarding sites that use blue.[/sarcasm]
Joshua Kendall

1734 days ago

Damn, I didn’t realize it was that long of a post.

Well…sorry John.
Jo

1734 days ago

I went to an interview for a web designer a while back and was actually told by the male interviewing me (also the owner of the company) that he was reluctant to hire a female as there was a lot of maleish banter thrown about – “If you know what I mean Love :: wink wink :: ”

Needless to say, I never got the job…

In every job I have had as a designer there has only ever been on woman in the team – me. And I do believe that this is down to a serious lack of women working in IT. That being said, in my current job working in an IT training centre, there is only on bloke in a group of five women.

Lucky bloke…
mikulla

1734 days ago

My thoughts.

What is wrong with these people. As if the web design community is trying to shut out women or any type of minority. It is just a fact that there are more men than women designing sites. It is a fact.

All this waaaaaa….ing and boo…....ing does nothing to elevate a minority or level the playing field.

What is wrong with the world today is the extra effort to be “tolerant” and “inclusive”. We are way beyond that and issues of affirmative action are things real civil rights leaders would despise. Unfortuanately there are few, if any, real civil rights leaders left.

I guess it is always someone elses fault for your failure. Here is another fact. Everyone is persecuted in one way or another. Get over it, work hard, and rise above. Complaining gets you nowhere.
goodwitch

1734 days ago

My, all of this talk has me thinking about sex. I decided to check out the stats of women in technology in the US. Since I had a lot to say, I made the post on my own blog under Gender Blind .

Now, how ‘bout I buy the next round of beer?
Hilde

1732 days ago

I wish I could be an opportunist linker as well, but as with so many other female web designers I don’t have a decent site to link to. Yet. (But I do have several old sites out there that would make any validator cringe.)

I work as a web designer in a big company all day. Then there are friends and family that I would like to socialize with every now and then. Then there’s the pro bono work I’m doing on a rather big community site for some friends of mine. And then the laundry. And dinner. And dishes. And, if I find time – sleep.

And always last on the list: my own website.

So for me, it’s about time and priorities.

Another “problem” for me is the fact that I don’t know any other webbie-girls. This might be sexist as well, but I think it’s easier for for boys to get a head start in their youth, just by hanging out with other kids with an interest in web development, programming etc. And then, as they grow up, they continue talking about “how to work around the box model problem without turning to hacks” and “have you seen the fancy new navigation on Shaun Inmans site?” – while we chicas gossip about who left whom for what reasons and how to get candle wax off a table. And not a < table > at that.

Fortunately, discussions like this one bring forth some interesting links to female designers/developers. I’m sure the discussion will come up again – and hopefully I’ll have my portfolio site and my blog up and running in time for some massive opportunist linking!

PS! Pardon my stuttering english. I belong to the minority of Norwegian web designers. Female Norwegian web designers. Lesbian female Norwegian web designers. And I still wonder why I can’t find anyone like me on the Internet.
Thom

1732 days ago

women do 70% of the worlds work for 5% of the worlds income…..check that out.
Bryan

1732 days ago

“Where the white women at?”
Kate Bolin

1731 days ago

A lot of the points I’d be making have already been made, but there’s also a huge amount of women who are involved in the web, but do not identify as web designers. It’s something they do as a hobby, something that is a tool for something else they’re interested in, and, therefore, don’t show up in the forums or on the blogs or anything like that — they’re too busy using the tools of web design for something they love.

I know tons of women who happily bury themselves in web design but aren’t “designers” or “developers” or whatever.

I’m currently trying to work out what all this means, how people are using and designing on the web without identifying as “web people” and how to include them in the standardista community, but it’s all very intangible at the moment. But this conversation helps.

Jon

JohnO

Graham Bancroft (House Husband)

Jo

Hilde

Thom

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